[Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help

Wed Dec 9 13:01:02 EST 2015

Niki,

Sorry for the delay.  I'm afraid your PDF came through completely garbled
so could not see what you are talking about.  However, I would not
necessarily expect big differences in the scattering pattern depending on
the exact value of the parameters being used.  Could you send the list of
parameter=values you used for the two cases?  I understand you used two
different models.  That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable
or not.

Cheers

Paul

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile <niki.baccile at ...16...> wrote:

> They do look slightly different but I guessed that they were still too
> close for two systems the difference of which lies in the rim - face
> thickness environments.
>
> Niki
>
>
>
> At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote:
>
> They do look different to me if you take a closer look at the first
> minimum of the curves you showed in the graph.
>
> LH
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile at ...16... <niki.baccile at ...16...>]
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM
> To: He, Lilin; butlerpd at ...4...
> Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help
>
> Hi Lilin, Paul
>
> thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document online
> are not clear.
> Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) or
> L<<R (platelet, bicelle,...) even if the mathematical expression is
> the same.
> However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the
> details):
>
> I obtain the same model curve if I set L<<R, a Rim Thickness= 0 and a
> Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sort
> of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core Shell
> Cylinder model with L<<R and a shell thickness (which should
> correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness...
>
> You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The red
> (CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincident
> (do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of the
> values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to the
> parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness in
> the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in the
> cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing!
>
> I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because I
> want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct.
>
> Thank you
>
> Niki
>
> "He, Lilin" <hel3 at ...17...> a Ã©critÂ :
>
>
> > Here is my understanding:
> >
> > These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the form
> > factor.  We do need to change the initial parameters for the
> > CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable.
> >
> > LH
> >
> > From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd at ...4... <butlerpd at ...4...>]
> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM
> > To: Mailing list for users of SasView
> > Cc: users at ...2...
> > Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help
> >
> > In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes.
> >
> > Actually there is no requirement that L>R.  L is defined as along
> > the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension.  Indeed with
> > L>>R  it would be considered a long rod while L<R would be a disc.
> > Also you could have L=R.  So the base of the bicelle is a disc.  As
> > for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, while
> > the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc
> >
> > Hope this helps
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILE
> > <niki.baccile at ...16...<mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...>> wrote:
> > Dear Users
> >
> > Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D
> > version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below?
> >
> >
> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel
> >
> > The following is not clear to me:
> >
> > 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the
> > basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that
> > if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains
> > a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard
> > parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this
> > normal?
> >
> >
> > 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the
> > axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in
> >
> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel
> >
> > Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I
> > suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of
> > the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in
> > the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to
> > the Face Thickness?
> >
> > Thank you very much for your help.
> >
> > Niki
> >
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> Dr. Niki Baccile
> Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris
> Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
> Université Pierre et Marie Curie
> Collège de France
> 11 Place Marcelin Berthelot
> Bat C Et 4
> 75005 Paris
> Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44
> Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04
>
>
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