Dear Paul, Lilin

thank you for your messages.

As attached document a full pic of what I mean (including the numerical values). I tried to make it as clear as possible (drawings come from the SasView documentation).

I do not understand why Model N°2 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 (CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle describe the same object according to the choice of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0, rest is the same), provide a different scattering profile.

I understand even less why Model N°1 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 (CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the same object (face thick> 0 versus rim thick>0, rest is the same), do provide an alike scattering profile.

Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake somewhere? Or there is a problem in the model description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for the Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes, either one or the other is wrong.

thank you very much

Niki


At 07:01 PM 12/9/2015, Paul Butler wrote:
Niki,

Sorry for the delay.  I'm afraid your PDF came through completely garbled so could not see what you are talking about.  However, I would not necessarily expect big differences in the scattering pattern depending on the exact value of the parameters being used.  Could you send the list of parameter=values you used for the two cases?  I understand you used two different models.  That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable or not.

Cheers

Paul

On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile <niki.baccile@...16...> wrote:
They do look slightly different but I guessed that they were still too close for two systems the difference of which lies in the rim - face thickness environments.

Niki



At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote:
They do look different to me if you take a closer look at the first minimum of the curves you showed in the graph.

LH
-----Original Message-----
From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile@...16...]
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM
To: He, Lilin; butlerpd@...4...
Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help

Hi Lilin, Paul

thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document online 
are not clear.
Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) or 
L<<R (platelet, bicelle,...) even if the mathematical expression is 
the same.
However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the details):

I obtain the same model curve if I set L<<R, a Rim Thickness= 0 and a 
Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sort 
of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core Shell 
Cylinder model with L<<R and a shell thickness (which should 
correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness...

You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The red 
(CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincident 
(do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of the 
values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to the 
parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness in 
the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in the 
cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing!

I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because I 
want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct.

Thank you

Niki

"He, Lilin" <hel3@...17...> a écrit :


> Here is my understanding:
>
> These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the form 
> factor.  We do need to change the initial parameters for the 
> CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable.
>
> LH
>
> From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd@...4...]
> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM
> To: Mailing list for users of SasView
> Cc: users@...2...
> Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help
>
> In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes.
>
> Actually there is no requirement that L>R.  L is defined as along 
> the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension.  Indeed with 
> L>>R  it would be considered a long rod while L<R would be a disc.  
> Also you could have L=R.  So the base of the bicelle is a disc.  As 
> for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, while 
> the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILE 
> <niki.baccile@...16... < mailto:niki.baccile@...16...>> wrote:
> Dear Users
>
> Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D
> version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below?
>
> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel
>
> The following is not clear to me:
>
> 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the
> basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that
> if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains
> a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard
> parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this
> normal?
>
>
> 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the
> axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in
> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel
>
> Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I
> suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of
> the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in
> the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to
> the Face Thickness?
>
> Thank you very much for your help.
>
> Niki
>
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Dr. Niki Baccile
Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
Université Pierre et Marie Curie
Collège de France
11 Place Marcelin Berthelot
Bat C Et 4
75005 Paris
Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44
Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04

"Try it, and you'll see it"


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Dr. Niki Baccile
Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
Université Pierre et Marie Curie
Collège de France
11 Place Marcelin Berthelot
Bat C Et 4
75005 Paris
Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44
Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04

"Try it, and you'll see it"

Avast logo

L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
www.avast.com