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Dear Paul, Lilin<br><br>
thank you for your messages.<br><br>
As attached document a full pic of what I mean (including the numerical
values). I tried to make it as clear as possible (drawings come from the
SasView documentation).<br><br>
I do not understand why Model N°2 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3
(CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle describe the same object
according to the choice of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0,
rest is the same), provide a different scattering profile.<br><br>
I understand even less why Model N°1 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3
(CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the same object (face
thick> 0 versus rim thick>0, rest is the same), do provide an alike
scattering profile.<br><br>
Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake somewhere? Or there is a
problem in the model description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for the
Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes, either one or the other is
wrong.<br><br>
thank you very much<br><br>
Niki<br><br>
<br>
At 07:01 PM 12/9/2015, Paul Butler wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Niki,<br><br>
Sorry for the delay. I'm afraid your PDF came through completely
garbled so could not see what you are talking about. However, I
would not necessarily expect big differences in the scattering pattern
depending on the exact value of the parameters being used. Could
you send the list of parameter=values you used for the two cases?Â
I understand you used two different models. That will tell me if
what you are seeing is reasonable or not.<br><br>
Cheers<br><br>
Paul<br><br>
On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile
<<a href="mailto:niki.baccile@...16...">niki.baccile@...16...</a>>
wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd>They do look slightly different but I guessed that they were still
too close for two systems the difference of which lies in the rim - face
thickness environments.<br><br>
<dd>Niki<br><br>
<br><br>
<dd>At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dd>They do look different to me if you take a closer look at the first
minimum of the curves you showed in the graph. <br><br>
<dd>LH<br>
<dd>-----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>From: Niki BACCILE [
<a href="mailto:niki.baccile@...16..." eudora="autourl">
mailto:niki.baccile@...16...</a>] <br>
<dd>Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM<br>
<dd>To: He, Lilin;
<a href="mailto:butlerpd@...4...">butlerpd@...4...</a><br>
<dd>Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help<br><br>
<dd>Hi Lilin, Paul<br><br>
<dd>thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document
online <br>
<dd>are not clear.<br>
<dd>Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R
(cylinder) or <br>
<dd>L<<R (platelet, bicelle,...) even if the mathematical
expression is <br>
<dd>the same.<br>
<dd>However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the
details):<br><br>
<dd>I obtain the same model curve if I set L<<R, a Rim Thickness= 0
and a <br>
<dd>Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a
sort <br>
<dd>of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core
Shell <br>
<dd>Cylinder model with L<<R and a shell thickness (which
should <br>
<dd>correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face
Thickness...<br><br>
<dd>You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The redÂ
<br>
<dd>(CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are
coincident <br>
<dd>(do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of
the <br>
<dd>values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to
the <br>
<dd>parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness
in <br>
<dd>the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in
the <br>
<dd>cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing!<br><br>
<dd>I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because
IÂ <br>
<dd>want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct.<br><br>
<dd>Thank you<br><br>
<dd>Niki<br><br>
<dd>"He, Lilin"
<<a href="mailto:hel3@...17...">hel3@...17...</a>> a écritÂ
:<br><br>
<br>
<dd>> Here is my understanding:<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the
form <br>
<dd>> factor. We do need to change the initial parameters for
the <br>
<dd>> CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable.<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> LH<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> From: Paul Butler [
<a href="mailto:butlerpd@...4..." eudora="autourl">
mailto:butlerpd@...4...</a>]<br>
<dd>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM<br>
<dd>> To: Mailing list for users of SasView<br>
<dd>> Cc:
<a href="mailto:users@...2...">users@...2...</a><br>
<dd>> Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes.<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Actually there is no requirement that L>R. L is
defined as along <br>
<dd>> the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension.Â
Indeed with <br>
<dd>> L>>RÂ it would be considered a long rod while L<R
would be a disc.  <br>
<dd>> Also you could have L=R. So the base of the bicelle is a
disc. As <br>
<dd>> for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension,
while <br>
<dd>> the face would be effectively another disc on each
"face" of the disc<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Hope this helps<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Paul<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILEÂ <br>
<dd>>
<<a href="mailto:niki.baccile@...16...">niki.baccile@...16...</a>
<<a href="mailto:niki.baccile@...16..." eudora="autourl">
mailto:niki.baccile@...16...</a>>> wrote:<br>
<dd>> Dear Users<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model
(1D<br>
<dd>> version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation
below?<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>>
<a href="http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel">
http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel</a>
<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> The following is not clear to me:<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed
on the<br>
<dd>> basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is
that<br>
<dd>> if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length),
one obtains<br>
<dd>> a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle
standard<br>
<dd>> parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20).
Is this<br>
<dd>> normal?<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core
in the<br>
<dd>> axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as
shown in<br>
<dd>>
<a href="http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel">
http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel</a>
<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make
it a bicelle, I<br>
<dd>> suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness
of<br>
<dd>> the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at
all in<br>
<dd>> the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds
to<br>
<dd>> the Face Thickness?<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Thank you very much for your help.<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>> Niki<br>
<dd>><br>
<dd>>
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<dd>><br>
<dd>><br>
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<dd>----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<dd>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging
Program.</blockquote><br>
<dd>Dr. Niki Baccile<br>
<dd>Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris<br>
<dd>Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique<br>
<dd>Université Pierre et Marie Curie<br>
<dd>Collège de France<br>
<dd>11 Place Marcelin Berthelot<br>
<dd>Bat C Et 4<br>
<dd>75005 Paris<br>
<dd>Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44<br>
<dd>Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04<br><br>
<dd>"Try it, and you'll see it"<br>
</i><br><br>
<hr>
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<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Dr. Niki Baccile<br>
Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris<br>
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique<br>
Université Pierre et Marie Curie<br>
Collège de France<br>
11 Place Marcelin Berthelot<br>
Bat C Et 4<br>
75005 Paris<br>
Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44<br>
Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04<br><br>
<i>"Try it, and you'll see it"<br>
</i>
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