[Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help

Niki Baccile niki.baccile at ...16...
Thu Dec 10 07:24:12 EST 2015 

Dear Paul, Lilin

thank you for your messages.

As attached document a full pic of what I mean
(including the numerical values). I tried to make
it as clear as possible (drawings come from the SasView documentation).

I do not understand why Model N°2
(CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3
(CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle
describe the same object according to the choice
of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0,
rest is the same), provide a different scattering profile.

I understand even less why Model N°1
(CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3
(CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the
same object (face thick> 0 versus rim thick>0,
rest is the same), do provide an alike scattering profile.

Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake
somewhere? Or there is a problem in the model
description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for
the Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes,
either one or the other is wrong.

thank you very much

Niki


At 07:01 PM 12/9/2015, Paul Butler wrote:
>Niki,
>
>Sorry for the delay.  I'm afraid your PDF came
>through completely garbled so could not see what
>you are talking about.  However, I would not
>necessarily expect big differences in the
>scattering pattern depending on the exact value
>of the parameters being used.  Could you send
>the list of parameter=values you used for the
>two cases?  I understand you used two different
>models.  That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable or not.
>
>Cheers
>
>Paul
>
>On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile
><<mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...>niki.baccile at ...16...> wrote:
>They do look slightly different but I guessed
>that they were still too close for two systems
>the difference of which lies in the rim - face thickness environments.
>
>Niki
>
>
>
>At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote:
>>They do look different to me if you take a
>>closer look at the first minimum of the curves you showed in the graph.
>>
>>LH
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...]
>>Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM
>>To: He, Lilin; <mailto:butlerpd at ...4...>butlerpd at ...4...
>>Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help
>>
>>Hi Lilin, Paul
>>
>>thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document onlineÂ
>>are not clear.
>>Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) orÂ
>>L<<R (platelet, bicelle,...) even if the mathematical expression isÂ
>>the same.
>>However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the details):
>>
>>I obtain the same model curve if I set L<<R, a Rim Thickness= 0 and aÂ
>>Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sortÂ
>>of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core ShellÂ
>>Cylinder model with L<<R and a shell thickness (which shouldÂ
>>correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness...
>>
>>You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The redÂ
>>(CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincidentÂ
>>(do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of theÂ
>>values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to theÂ
>>parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness inÂ
>>the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in theÂ
>>cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing!
>>
>>I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because IÂ
>>want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct.
>>
>>Thank you
>>
>>Niki
>>
>>"He, Lilin" <<mailto:hel3 at ...17...>hel3 at ...17...> a écrit :
>>
>>
>> > Here is my understanding:
>> >
>> > These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the formÂ
>> > factor.  We do need to change the initial parameters for theÂ
>> > CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable.
>> >
>> > LH
>> >
>> > From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd at ...4...]
>> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM
>> > To: Mailing list for users of SasView
>> > Cc: <mailto:users at ...2...>users at ...2...
>> > Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help
>> >
>> > In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes.
>> >
>> > Actually there is no requirement that L>R.  L is defined as alongÂ
>> > the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension.  Indeed withÂ
>> > L>>R  it would be considered a long rod while L<R would be a disc. Â
>> > Also you could have L=R.  So the base of the bicelle is a disc.  AsÂ
>> > for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, whileÂ
>> > the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc
>> >
>> > Hope this helps
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILEÂ
>> >
>> <<mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...>niki.baccile at ...16...<mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...>>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear Users
>> >
>> > Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D
>> > version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below?
>> >
>> >
>> <http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel>http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel
>>
>> >
>> > The following is not clear to me:
>> >
>> > 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the
>> > basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that
>> > if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains
>> > a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard
>> > parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this
>> > normal?
>> >
>> >
>> > 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the
>> > axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in
>> >
>> <http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel>http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel
>>
>> >
>> > Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I
>> > suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of
>> > the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in
>> > the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to
>> > the Face Thickness?
>> >
>> > Thank you very much for your help.
>> >
>> > Niki
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>
>Dr. Niki Baccile
>Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris
>Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
>Université Pierre et Marie Curie
>Collège de France
>11 Place Marcelin Berthelot
>Bat C Et 4
>75005 Paris
>Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44
>Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04
>
>"Try it, and you'll see it"
>
>
>
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Dr. Niki Baccile
Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris
Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
Université Pierre et Marie Curie
Collège de France
11 Place Marcelin Berthelot
Bat C Et 4
75005 Paris
Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44
Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04

"Try it, and you'll see it"


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