From stephen.king at ...8... Wed Dec 9 11:31:01 2015 From: stephen.king at ...8... (stephen.king at ...8...) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:31:01 +0000 Subject: [Sasview-users] SasView 3.1.2 - please upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A new update of SasView, version 3.1.2, has just been released. It is recommended that all users of SasView upgrade. http://www.sasview.org/ The SasView Development Team New in Version 3.1.2 This release is a major stability improvement, having fixed a serious bug that came to light since release 3.1.1. All users should upgrade. Fixes bug #468 broken remove constraint buttons in simultaneous/constrained fitting panel Fixes bug #474 resulting from changes in 3.1.1 that had introduced an error in the high-Q of slit-smeared models. Fixes bug #478 which would cause wx to run out of IDs and result in SasView crashing even if left alone. Fixes bug #479 missing help button on simultaneous/constrained fit page Fixes bug #480 GUI resizing issues on simultaneous fit page Fixes bug #486 broken Report Results Fixes bug #488 redraw issues in fit page New in Version 3.1.1 Fixes bug #457 that prevented SasView from starting if the user was not connected to the internet, or was behind a proxy server. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerpd at ...4... Wed Dec 9 13:01:02 2015 From: butlerpd at ...4... (Paul Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:01:02 -0500 Subject: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help In-Reply-To: <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> References: <20151130195809.12544x2l7l18j1us@...15...> <20151204002813.67921pxx5xqe75z4@...15...> <32a99d571c644342a61a2aa13ed13092@...19...> <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> Message-ID: Niki, Sorry for the delay. I'm afraid your PDF came through completely garbled so could not see what you are talking about. However, I would not necessarily expect big differences in the scattering pattern depending on the exact value of the parameters being used. Could you send the list of parameter=values you used for the two cases? I understand you used two different models. That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable or not. Cheers Paul On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile wrote: > They do look slightly different but I guessed that they were still too > close for two systems the difference of which lies in the rim - face > thickness environments. > > Niki > > > > At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote: > > They do look different to me if you take a closer look at the first > minimum of the curves you showed in the graph. > > LH > -----Original Message----- > From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile at ...16... ] > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM > To: He, Lilin; butlerpd at ...4... > Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help > > Hi Lilin, Paul > > thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document online > are not clear. > Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) or > L< the same. > However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the > details): > > I obtain the same model curve if I set L< Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sort > of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core Shell > Cylinder model with L< correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness... > > You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The red > (CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincident > (do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of the > values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to the > parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness in > the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in the > cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing! > > I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because I > want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct. > > Thank you > > Niki > > "He, Lilin" a écrit : > > > > Here is my understanding: > > > > These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the form > > factor. We do need to change the initial parameters for the > > CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable. > > > > LH > > > > From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd at ...4... ] > > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM > > To: Mailing list for users of SasView > > Cc: users at ...2... > > Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help > > > > In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes. > > > > Actually there is no requirement that L>R. L is defined as along > > the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension. Indeed with > > L>>R it would be considered a long rod while L > Also you could have L=R. So the base of the bicelle is a disc. As > > for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, while > > the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Paul > > > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILE > > > wrote: > > Dear Users > > > > Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D > > version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below? > > > > > http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel > > > > The following is not clear to me: > > > > 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the > > basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that > > if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains > > a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard > > parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this > > normal? > > > > > > 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the > > axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in > > > http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel > > > > Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I > > suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of > > the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in > > the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to > > the Face Thickness? > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Niki > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK > > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. > > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. > > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple > OSs. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741911&iu=/4140 > > _______________________________________________ > > Sasview-users mailing list > > Sasview-users at lists.sourceforge.net< > mailto:Sasview-users at lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sasview-users > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > Dr. Niki Baccile > Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris > Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique > Université Pierre et Marie Curie > Collège de France > 11 Place Marcelin Berthelot > Bat C Et 4 > 75005 Paris > Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44 > Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04 > > > *"Try it, and you'll see it" * > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le > logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From niki.baccile at ...16... Thu Dec 10 07:24:12 2015 From: niki.baccile at ...16... (Niki Baccile) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:24:12 +0100 Subject: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help In-Reply-To: References: <20151130195809.12544x2l7l18j1us@...15...> <20151204002813.67921pxx5xqe75z4@...15...> <32a99d571c644342a61a2aa13ed13092@...19...> <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> Message-ID: Dear Paul, Lilin thank you for your messages. As attached document a full pic of what I mean (including the numerical values). I tried to make it as clear as possible (drawings come from the SasView documentation). I do not understand why Model N°2 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 (CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle describe the same object according to the choice of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0, rest is the same), provide a different scattering profile. I understand even less why Model N°1 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 (CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the same object (face thick> 0 versus rim thick>0, rest is the same), do provide an alike scattering profile. Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake somewhere? Or there is a problem in the model description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for the Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes, either one or the other is wrong. thank you very much Niki At 07:01 PM 12/9/2015, Paul Butler wrote: >Niki, > >Sorry for the delay. I'm afraid your PDF came >through completely garbled so could not see what >you are talking about. However, I would not >necessarily expect big differences in the >scattering pattern depending on the exact value >of the parameters being used. Could you send >the list of parameter=values you used for the >two cases? I understand you used two different >models. That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable or not. > >Cheers > >Paul > >On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile ><niki.baccile at ...16...> wrote: >They do look slightly different but I guessed >that they were still too close for two systems >the difference of which lies in the rim - face thickness environments. > >Niki > > > >At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote: >>They do look different to me if you take a >>closer look at the first minimum of the curves you showed in the graph. >> >>LH >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...] >>Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM >>To: He, Lilin; butlerpd at ...4... >>Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help >> >>Hi Lilin, Paul >> >>thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document online >>are not clear. >>Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) or >>L<>the same. >>However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the details): >> >>I obtain the same model curve if I set L<>Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sort >>of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core Shell >>Cylinder model with L<>correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness... >> >>You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The red >>(CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincident >>(do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of the >>values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to the >>parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness in >>the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in the >>cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing! >> >>I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because I >>want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct. >> >>Thank you >> >>Niki >> >>"He, Lilin" <hel3 at ...17...> a écrit : >> >> >> > Here is my understanding: >> > >> > These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the form >> > factor. We do need to change the initial parameters for the >> > CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable. >> > >> > LH >> > >> > From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd at ...4...] >> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM >> > To: Mailing list for users of SasView >> > Cc: users at ...2... >> > Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help >> > >> > In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes. >> > >> > Actually there is no requirement that L>R. L is defined as along >> > the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension. Indeed with >> > L>>R it would be considered a long rod while L> > Also you could have L=R. So the base of the bicelle is a disc. As >> > for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, while >> > the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc >> > >> > Hope this helps >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILE >> > >> <niki.baccile at ...16...> >> wrote: >> > Dear Users >> > >> > Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D >> > version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below? >> > >> > >> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel >> >> > >> > The following is not clear to me: >> > >> > 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the >> > basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that >> > if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains >> > a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard >> > parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this >> > normal? >> > >> > >> > 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the >> > axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in >> > >> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel >> >> > >> > Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I >> > suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of >> > the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in >> > the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to >> > the Face Thickness? >> > >> > Thank you very much for your help. >> > >> > Niki >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK >> > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. >> > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. >> > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D >> high-impact games for multiple OSs. >> > >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741911&iu=/4140 >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sasview-users mailing list >> > >> Sasview-users at ...23...rge.net< >> mailto:Sasview-users at lists.sourceforge.net> >> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sasview-users >> > >> > >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >Dr. Niki Baccile >Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris >Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique >Université Pierre et Marie Curie >Collège de France >11 Place Marcelin Berthelot >Bat C Et 4 >75005 Paris >Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44 >Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04 > >"Try it, and you'll see it" > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > >L'absence de virus dans ce courrier >électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast. >www.avast.com > Dr. Niki Baccile Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique Université Pierre et Marie Curie Collège de France 11 Place Marcelin Berthelot Bat C Et 4 75005 Paris Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44 Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04 "Try it, and you'll see it" --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Core shell Bicelle ellipsoid model comparison.xls Type: application/octet-stream Size: 176640 bytes Desc: not available URL: From butlerpd at ...4... Thu Dec 10 16:44:53 2015 From: butlerpd at ...4... (Paul Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:44:53 -0500 Subject: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help In-Reply-To: <56696ec1.84adc20a.bb56.ffffb814SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> References: <20151130195809.12544x2l7l18j1us@...15...> <20151204002813.67921pxx5xqe75z4@...15...> <32a99d571c644342a61a2aa13ed13092@...19...> <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> <56696ec1.84adc20a.bb56.ffffb814SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> Message-ID: Hi Niki, Looking at your parameters I would not expect significant differences in any of the models as they should all be dominated by the core, a very thin 20nm diameter disc (of thickness 0.08nm to 0.34nm depending on the existence or not of faces). Adding a 0.1nm shell (rim) shouldn't make much difference unless the core is close to contrast matched I would think? For the face thickness one might expect some oscillations at unrealistically high q that I would normally expect to be in the background. Reading the model documentation I now see the problem(s). The main problem being our interpretation of the model. 1) The core shell bicelle model states that it is a *general* case of the coreShellCylinder that allows you to have different SLD on the face and the rim! I then looked at the cylinder documentation (and if you blow up the picture in the excel sheet you will see it) where the graphic clearly shows that the shell surronds the core of the cylinder: both a face *and* a rim but the thickness and sld is the same all around (the bicelle allows both for a different t and a differnet SLD between the rim and face). hence the graphic shows that Ltotal= 2H +2t where L(of core)=2H as also shown on the graphic. 2) I notice that you in fact are going out to 10 1/A. At these qs you are looking on the fraction of an Angstom lengths and the average SLD approximation made in all these models starts to break down as implied in my first paragraph. 3) Ignoring now whether the continuum approximation is correct at these very high qs the sandwich structure in the normal direction fo a 0.14nm coating layer followed by the 0.08nm core thicknes followed by the 0.14nm coating on the other side shows up as the oscillation you see in 1 and 3 (your model graphic is of course wrong for 3 as discussed in 1 above - it should have a 0.14nm layer on the face as well as the rim with same SLD on both). Adding just a tiny rim to the giant disk as I suggested in the beginning does not matter much unless you make the core match the solvent perfectly .. then you will see some ringing in the pattern. In fact I was surprised at how close you have to be to matched before seeing anything. Hope this helps? Paul On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Niki Baccile wrote: > Dear Paul, Lilin > > thank you for your messages. > > As attached document a full pic of what I mean (including the numerical > values). I tried to make it as clear as possible (drawings come from the > SasView documentation). > > I do not understand why Model N°2 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 > (CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle describe the same object > according to the choice of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0, rest > is the same), provide a different scattering profile. > > I understand even less why Model N°1 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 > (CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the same object (face thick> 0 > versus rim thick>0, rest is the same), do provide an alike scattering > profile. > > Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake somewhere? Or there is a > problem in the model description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for the > Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes, either one or the other is > wrong. > > thank you very much > > Niki > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen.king at ...8... Wed Dec 9 11:31:01 2015 From: stephen.king at ...8... (stephen.king at ...8...) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:31:01 +0000 Subject: [Sasview-users] SasView 3.1.2 - please upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A new update of SasView, version 3.1.2, has just been released. It is recommended that all users of SasView upgrade. http://www.sasview.org/ The SasView Development Team New in Version 3.1.2 This release is a major stability improvement, having fixed a serious bug that came to light since release 3.1.1. All users should upgrade. Fixes bug #468 broken remove constraint buttons in simultaneous/constrained fitting panel Fixes bug #474 resulting from changes in 3.1.1 that had introduced an error in the high-Q of slit-smeared models. Fixes bug #478 which would cause wx to run out of IDs and result in SasView crashing even if left alone. Fixes bug #479 missing help button on simultaneous/constrained fit page Fixes bug #480 GUI resizing issues on simultaneous fit page Fixes bug #486 broken Report Results Fixes bug #488 redraw issues in fit page New in Version 3.1.1 Fixes bug #457 that prevented SasView from starting if the user was not connected to the internet, or was behind a proxy server. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerpd at ...4... Wed Dec 9 13:01:02 2015 From: butlerpd at ...4... (Paul Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:01:02 -0500 Subject: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help In-Reply-To: <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> References: <20151130195809.12544x2l7l18j1us@...15...> <20151204002813.67921pxx5xqe75z4@...15...> <32a99d571c644342a61a2aa13ed13092@...19...> <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> Message-ID: Niki, Sorry for the delay. I'm afraid your PDF came through completely garbled so could not see what you are talking about. However, I would not necessarily expect big differences in the scattering pattern depending on the exact value of the parameters being used. Could you send the list of parameter=values you used for the two cases? I understand you used two different models. That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable or not. Cheers Paul On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile wrote: > They do look slightly different but I guessed that they were still too > close for two systems the difference of which lies in the rim - face > thickness environments. > > Niki > > > > At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote: > > They do look different to me if you take a closer look at the first > minimum of the curves you showed in the graph. > > LH > -----Original Message----- > From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile at ...16... ] > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM > To: He, Lilin; butlerpd at ...4... > Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help > > Hi Lilin, Paul > > thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document online > are not clear. > Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) or > L< the same. > However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the > details): > > I obtain the same model curve if I set L< Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sort > of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core Shell > Cylinder model with L< correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness... > > You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The red > (CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincident > (do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of the > values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to the > parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness in > the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in the > cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing! > > I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because I > want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct. > > Thank you > > Niki > > "He, Lilin" a écrit : > > > > Here is my understanding: > > > > These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the form > > factor. We do need to change the initial parameters for the > > CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable. > > > > LH > > > > From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd at ...4... ] > > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM > > To: Mailing list for users of SasView > > Cc: users at ...2... > > Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help > > > > In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes. > > > > Actually there is no requirement that L>R. L is defined as along > > the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension. Indeed with > > L>>R it would be considered a long rod while L > Also you could have L=R. So the base of the bicelle is a disc. As > > for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, while > > the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Paul > > > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILE > > > wrote: > > Dear Users > > > > Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D > > version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below? > > > > > http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel > > > > The following is not clear to me: > > > > 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the > > basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that > > if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains > > a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard > > parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this > > normal? > > > > > > 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the > > axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in > > > http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel > > > > Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I > > suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of > > the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in > > the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to > > the Face Thickness? > > > > Thank you very much for your help. > > > > Niki > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK > > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. > > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. > > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple > OSs. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741911&iu=/4140 > > _______________________________________________ > > Sasview-users mailing list > > Sasview-users at lists.sourceforge.net< > mailto:Sasview-users at lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sasview-users > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > Dr. Niki Baccile > Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris > Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique > Université Pierre et Marie Curie > Collège de France > 11 Place Marcelin Berthelot > Bat C Et 4 > 75005 Paris > Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44 > Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04 > > > *"Try it, and you'll see it" * > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le > logiciel antivirus Avast. > www.avast.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From niki.baccile at ...16... Thu Dec 10 07:24:12 2015 From: niki.baccile at ...16... (Niki Baccile) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:24:12 +0100 Subject: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help In-Reply-To: References: <20151130195809.12544x2l7l18j1us@...15...> <20151204002813.67921pxx5xqe75z4@...15...> <32a99d571c644342a61a2aa13ed13092@...19...> <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> Message-ID: Dear Paul, Lilin thank you for your messages. As attached document a full pic of what I mean (including the numerical values). I tried to make it as clear as possible (drawings come from the SasView documentation). I do not understand why Model N°2 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 (CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle describe the same object according to the choice of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0, rest is the same), provide a different scattering profile. I understand even less why Model N°1 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 (CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the same object (face thick> 0 versus rim thick>0, rest is the same), do provide an alike scattering profile. Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake somewhere? Or there is a problem in the model description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for the Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes, either one or the other is wrong. thank you very much Niki At 07:01 PM 12/9/2015, Paul Butler wrote: >Niki, > >Sorry for the delay. I'm afraid your PDF came >through completely garbled so could not see what >you are talking about. However, I would not >necessarily expect big differences in the >scattering pattern depending on the exact value >of the parameters being used. Could you send >the list of parameter=values you used for the >two cases? I understand you used two different >models. That will tell me if what you are seeing is reasonable or not. > >Cheers > >Paul > >On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:48 AM, Niki Baccile ><niki.baccile at ...16...> wrote: >They do look slightly different but I guessed >that they were still too close for two systems >the difference of which lies in the rim - face thickness environments. > >Niki > > > >At 06:40 PM 12/4/2015, He, Lilin wrote: >>They do look different to me if you take a >>closer look at the first minimum of the curves you showed in the graph. >> >>LH >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Niki BACCILE [ mailto:niki.baccile at ...16...] >>Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 6:28 PM >>To: He, Lilin; butlerpd at ...4... >>Subject: RE: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help >> >>Hi Lilin, Paul >> >>thank you for taking the time to think about it. The document online >>are not clear. >>Lilin, yes, that is exactly the sense of setting L>>R (cylinder) or >>L<>the same. >>However, what I do not get is the following (sorry, I get into the details): >> >>I obtain the same model curve if I set L<>Face Thickness> 0 in the CoreShellBicelle, which should provide a sort >>of platelet (no rim at the edges), and, using this time a Core Shell >>Cylinder model with L<>correspond to the Rim) having the same value as the Face Thickness... >> >>You can visualize what I mean in the attached pdf. The red >>(CoreShellBicelle) and green (CoreShellCylinder) curves are coincident >>(do not mind the experimental data and the physical meaning of the >>values which apply good to my system) but if you look closer to the >>parameters, it should not be so, because I set the FaceThickness in >>the bicelle (thye Rim of which is zero) equal to the thickness in the >>cylinder, but these should not refer to the same thing! >> >>I hope this is not too messy, but it puzzles me quite a lot because I >>want ot be sure that the model I am employing is correct. >> >>Thank you >> >>Niki >> >>"He, Lilin" <hel3 at ...17...> a écrit : >> >> >> > Here is my understanding: >> > >> > These two shapes share the same mathematical equation for the form >> > factor. We do need to change the initial parameters for the >> > CoreShellBicelle model to make it reasonable. >> > >> > LH >> > >> > From: Paul Butler [ mailto:butlerpd at ...4...] >> > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 8:56 PM >> > To: Mailing list for users of SasView >> > Cc: users at ...2... >> > Subject: Re: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help >> > >> > In short, as I understand your questions the answer is yes. >> > >> > Actually there is no requirement that L>R. L is defined as along >> > the axis and R is the radially symmetric dimension. Indeed with >> > L>>R it would be considered a long rod while L> > Also you could have L=R. So the base of the bicelle is a disc. As >> > for # 2 yes the rim is the shell around the axial dimension, while >> > the face would be effectively another disc on each "face" of the disc >> > >> > Hope this helps >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Niki BACCILE >> > >> <niki.baccile at ...16...> >> wrote: >> > Dear Users >> > >> > Can anyone provide some help on the CoreShellBicelle Model (1D >> > version) developed in SasView and referring to the documentation below? >> > >> > >> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellbicellemodel >> >> > >> > The following is not clear to me: >> > >> > 1) It is said that that the CoreShellBicelle Model is developed on the >> > basis of the CoreShell Cylinder. I suppose that what it means is that >> > if one squeezes a cylinder in its length (Radius>>Length), one obtains >> > a bicelle morphology from a cylinder. However, in the Bicelle standard >> > parameters, it is the contrary, Length (400)>>Radius(20). Is this >> > normal? >> > >> > >> > 2) In the CoreShellCylinder model, the Shell surrounds the Core in the >> > axial direction, parallel to the length of the cylinder, as shown in >> > >> http://www.sasview.org/docs/user/models/model_functions.html#coreshellcylindermodel >> >> > >> > Now, if I "squeeze" the cylinder in its length to make it a bicelle, I >> > suppose that the shell will then correspond to the Rim Thickness of >> > the bicelle. Is this correct? Or I did not figure this out at all in >> > the rigth way and the Shell of the cylinder actually corresponds to >> > the Face Thickness? >> > >> > Thank you very much for your help. >> > >> > Niki >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK >> > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. >> > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. >> > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D >> high-impact games for multiple OSs. >> > >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741911&iu=/4140 >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sasview-users mailing list >> > >> Sasview-users at ...23...rge.net< >> mailto:Sasview-users at lists.sourceforge.net> >> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sasview-users >> > >> > >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > >Dr. Niki Baccile >Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris >Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique >Université Pierre et Marie Curie >Collège de France >11 Place Marcelin Berthelot >Bat C Et 4 >75005 Paris >Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44 >Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04 > >"Try it, and you'll see it" > > > >---------- > >Avast logo > > >L'absence de virus dans ce courrier >électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast. >www.avast.com > Dr. Niki Baccile Laboratoire de Chimie de la Matière Condensée de Paris Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique Université Pierre et Marie Curie Collège de France 11 Place Marcelin Berthelot Bat C Et 4 75005 Paris Tel. 00 33 1 44 27 15 44 Fax. 00 33 1 44 27 15 04 "Try it, and you'll see it" --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Core shell Bicelle ellipsoid model comparison.xls Type: application/octet-stream Size: 176640 bytes Desc: not available URL: From butlerpd at ...4... Thu Dec 10 16:44:53 2015 From: butlerpd at ...4... (Paul Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:44:53 -0500 Subject: [Sasview-users] CoreShellBicelle Model help In-Reply-To: <56696ec1.84adc20a.bb56.ffffb814SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> References: <20151130195809.12544x2l7l18j1us@...15...> <20151204002813.67921pxx5xqe75z4@...15...> <32a99d571c644342a61a2aa13ed13092@...19...> <566555fd.e6aec20a.19c53.ffffdc31SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> <56696ec1.84adc20a.bb56.ffffb814SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@...18...> Message-ID: Hi Niki, Looking at your parameters I would not expect significant differences in any of the models as they should all be dominated by the core, a very thin 20nm diameter disc (of thickness 0.08nm to 0.34nm depending on the existence or not of faces). Adding a 0.1nm shell (rim) shouldn't make much difference unless the core is close to contrast matched I would think? For the face thickness one might expect some oscillations at unrealistically high q that I would normally expect to be in the background. Reading the model documentation I now see the problem(s). The main problem being our interpretation of the model. 1) The core shell bicelle model states that it is a *general* case of the coreShellCylinder that allows you to have different SLD on the face and the rim! I then looked at the cylinder documentation (and if you blow up the picture in the excel sheet you will see it) where the graphic clearly shows that the shell surronds the core of the cylinder: both a face *and* a rim but the thickness and sld is the same all around (the bicelle allows both for a different t and a differnet SLD between the rim and face). hence the graphic shows that Ltotal= 2H +2t where L(of core)=2H as also shown on the graphic. 2) I notice that you in fact are going out to 10 1/A. At these qs you are looking on the fraction of an Angstom lengths and the average SLD approximation made in all these models starts to break down as implied in my first paragraph. 3) Ignoring now whether the continuum approximation is correct at these very high qs the sandwich structure in the normal direction fo a 0.14nm coating layer followed by the 0.08nm core thicknes followed by the 0.14nm coating on the other side shows up as the oscillation you see in 1 and 3 (your model graphic is of course wrong for 3 as discussed in 1 above - it should have a 0.14nm layer on the face as well as the rim with same SLD on both). Adding just a tiny rim to the giant disk as I suggested in the beginning does not matter much unless you make the core match the solvent perfectly .. then you will see some ringing in the pattern. In fact I was surprised at how close you have to be to matched before seeing anything. Hope this helps? Paul On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Niki Baccile wrote: > Dear Paul, Lilin > > thank you for your messages. > > As attached document a full pic of what I mean (including the numerical > values). I tried to make it as clear as possible (drawings come from the > SasView documentation). > > I do not understand why Model N°2 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 > (CoreShellCylinder), which should in principle describe the same object > according to the choice of the parameters (no face, rim thickness> 0, rest > is the same), provide a different scattering profile. > > I understand even less why Model N°1 (CoreShellBicelle) and Model N°3 > (CoreShellCylinder), which DO NOT describe the same object (face thick> 0 > versus rim thick>0, rest is the same), do provide an alike scattering > profile. > > Does this make any sense? Did I make a mistake somewhere? Or there is a > problem in the model description for the Core-Shell Bicelle (or for the > Core Shell Cylinder)? If I made no mistakes, either one or the other is > wrong. > > thank you very much > > Niki > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: